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Chard10 post(s)
#20-Apr-15 15:54

Hello, I used to use this forum a few years ago, when working at a previous company that adopted Manifold. Now I am at a new company where my department currently doesn't have any GIS software, and I am trying to build a case for them to buy Manifold. I work for a wind farm developer, and we'd be looking at using Manifold primarily as a tool for preparing topographic files for use in modelling software such as Openwind. I've been trying to refresh my memory in order to establish which version would be best. I have a few questions based on the research I've just done;

- I get the impression that the 64bit version is strongly recommended over the 32bit, correct? Is it that much faster? More stable?

- Regarding Pro vs Personal - the website talks about the Pro version having internet map server. Is this referring to the ability to use something like Google Earth within Manifold? If so, and if Personal can't do that, then that would push me toward Pro.

- I see several options to combine with 'geocoding'. From what I can tell, geocoding appears more useful if dealing with cities/streets/populated areas. For wind farm development, such things are of no concern. Does geocoding have other uses that I would want?

- Surface Tools may be important, although perhaps not immediately. I take it that we could easily add it later?

Look forward to your advice

Thanks

Gustavo Palminha

1,010 post(s)
#20-Apr-15 17:06

I get the impression that the 64bit version is strongly recommended over the 32bit, correct? Is it that much faster? More stable?

Use x64 bits. I use mainly x86 when working with form components to optimize GIS work. The form component allows you to extend Manifold, so if you want the same feature using x64 you will need to create external add-ins.

Regarding Pro vs Personal - the website talks about the Pro version having internet map server. Is this referring to the ability to use something like Google Earth within Manifold? If so, and if Personal can't do that, then that would push me toward Pro.

Internet Map Server allows you to create web gis applications out of the box. If you need to connect to image servers you can use the Personal Edition. However I would recommend the professional version because in case you need to create and develop databases its better suited for that. Probably buy a mixture of licenses, because it depends on what you need to do.

I see several options to combine with 'geocoding'. From what I can tell, geocoding appears more useful if dealing with cities/streets/populated areas. For wind farm development, such things are of no concern. Does geocoding have other uses that I would want?

I also work with wind farm projects and never used geocoding with that.

Surface Tools may be important, although perhaps not immediately. I take it that we could easily add it later?

Yes its easy and probably this will be important to you. To add it later just by the surface tools extension.


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Chard10 post(s)
#20-Apr-15 17:17

Thanks,

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by 'form components'. When you say "allows you to extend Manifold", are you referring to the ability to create add-ins that allow Manifold to do tasks it normally can't do? And that the 32 bit version doesn't allow this? If it doesn't, that would allow me to rule out the 32 bit version, as I previously used add-ins extensively with various scripts and queries, so I value that feature.

When I say I want access to imagery like Google Earth, it's mainly to use as a foundation for digitising vegetation, and also to provide a background map. I don't know if databases would help here so perhaps the Personal version may meet my needs.

Good to know I shouldn't need geocoding, and can add surface tools at any time.

Gustavo Palminha

1,010 post(s)
#20-Apr-15 17:33

From components - Just check http://www.georeference.org/doc/manifold.htm and on the left side you sill need to follow Programming >> Forms. Just take a look into this topic (5 minutes will help you)

Extend Manifold - Means exactly what you understood. If you use x86 (you can use forms and add-ins) if you use x64 (just add-ins). Of course for both of them you can still use scripts but without User Interface.

If you buy the x64 version you will also have the x86. If you buy the x86, you will not have the x64 version of course.

The use of Google Earth and Virtual Earth image servers can be used with Personal Edition so it will work.

If you work with raster analysis, and if openwind allows you to export georeferenced image files, you may be able to imported them into Manifold but if you want perform more advanced computations with them inside Manifold you will need the Surface Tools.


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Chard10 post(s)
#20-Apr-15 17:59

Ah yes, I misread your first post slightly; I seem to recall when using the 64bit version at my last company, I still needed to use the Project Files (x86) folder with some add-ins.

So it appears that you still need x86 to retain certain functionality, but I take it you use x64 for performance. Is the performance difference really dramatic to justify x64? Is it a case of the 64bit version lagging less when working with large image files for example?

Cool, sounds like Personal edition will be fine if the company budget is tight.

One of the initial uses for Manifold will be getting stitched, georeferenced images into Openwind, as well as things like roughness polygons, contours etc.

artlembo


3,400 post(s)
#20-Apr-15 18:49

Things like terrain ruggedness and contours may require Surface Tools, so you might have to add that extension in.

Like Gustavo, I only use 32bit for when I want to link to an Excel spreadsheet, or if I want to create a Form for data entry.

64-bit is dramatically faster, especially with raster data.

I have had many students use Manifold for creating multi-criteria models for wind farm site selection. It works very nicely for that.

Feel free to contact me offline if you need to.

Gustavo Palminha

1,010 post(s)
#20-Apr-15 19:45

...but I take it you use x64 for performance. Is the performance difference really dramatic to justify x64? Is it a case of the 64bit version lagging less when working with large image files for example?

When I use it, I do it because of the better performance but depends the project size and processing power required. For me I have a lot of small project files and Its not important that difference but when its necessary to execute a more deeper analysis with more processing power it will make a difference.


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KlausDE

6,410 post(s)
#20-Apr-15 22:55

64bit plus RAM > 3GB makes the difference! Without that a x86 machine might be even better under certain circumstances because every INTEGER uses only have the size.


Do you really want to ruin economy only to save the planet?

tjhb
10,094 post(s)
#20-Apr-15 23:08

64-bit Windows should always be used since it is much more stable than 32-bit Windows.

Given 64-bit Windows, 64-bit Manifold should always be used, except when there is an explicit need to use 32-bit technology (such as Microsoft Jet, used with Access and Excel, or ActiveX controls, used by built-in Manifold forms). Partly because it is somewhat faster, and much more capable, with large datasets; mostly because it inherits all the benefits offered by 64-bit Windows, not just a subset.

Anyone thinking of saving $50 to buy a 32-bit licence rather than a 64-bit licence values their work too cheaply, in my opinion. (It depends where you are of course, but how many hours' work is $50?)

adaptagis

633 post(s)
#21-Apr-15 08:28

I totally agree with Tim's oppinion. Of course a consideration is useful.. but when it comes to Manifold 32 versus 64bit and personal version vs Professional for such huge projects like Windfarms this is too far fetched. Rather invest in solid Hard and Software and enjoy working on it than beeing annoyed and delayed by such issues. So instead of better safe than sorry you rather better spend than sorry ;-)

Chard10 post(s)
#21-Apr-15 11:39

Thanks for the advice so far. I'm convinced 64 bit is worth it. Still iffy about the benefits of pro version, but if budget allows, will probably opt for Pro 64bit with surface tools.

Regarding licenses, is it possible to buy a single license that can be easily activated/deactivated over multiple computers? If not, we may just need to designate a single 'manifold computer' in the office.

Chard10 post(s)
#21-Apr-15 12:11

ah I now see it is possible to buy a 'floating license' but there are big server costs involved, so a single manifold computer will need to be designated until multiple licenses can be bought.

I assume the 'five activation' thing comes into play when you need to replace the first computer on which manifold is installed.

Gustavo Palminha

1,010 post(s)
#21-Apr-15 12:38

About licensing, check - http://www.manifold.net/info/products.shtml There is an option for floating licences but it depends on your budget.

Regarding this...

Regarding licenses, is it possible to buy a single license that can be easily activated/deactivated over multiple computers?

... it cant bo done like that, so you probably will be better buying a few licences.

I assume the 'five activation' thing comes into play when you need to replace the first computer on which manifold is installed.

True


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dchall8
1,008 post(s)
#21-Apr-15 18:47

I do cadastral mapping for a county with about 30,000 parcels. My computer has an Intel I7 motherboard with 16GB RAM. I own both versions but use the x86 version exclusively for 2 reasons. One is that with the 64-bit there is a visual artifact that makes me crazy. When I zoom in and out on a selected parcel, there is a shadow of the selected parcel at the previous zoom level that remains as visual noise on the new zoom level. The second reason for x86 is that I am importing Excel data at least once a week.

My understanding is that if you have a very specific video card, then the 64-bit really becomes important to use the multi-processor capability. Currently my Google Earth background refresh speed is limited by slow, rural Internet speed. My previous job had high speed fiber to the building, so that was nice even without video acceleration.

oeaulong

521 post(s)
#21-Apr-15 21:16

I have seen these artifacts for years using manifold. While according to forum rules, we should not speculate on internals of Mfds approach, I feel we aren't in the position to understand the innards enough to predictably diagnose.

I feel though that the light red dot fill of the selection area is the culprit and doesn't trigger a "dirty rect" area of the screen to redraw when zooming in and out. Try changing the Selection Style control from the Dense Dots to a Border display. That may be a workaround. Let us know if it helps upon moving in and out of your zooms. I find predicting when this artifact will occur is difficult and so, personally, have learned to live with it. There are also threads relating to this and the line artifacts that traipse over the tabs on a map component when editing. Again I think this is due to changes to the ui portion of manifold vs the active component window portion treating dirty rects differently on redraw.

tjhb
10,094 post(s)
#22-Apr-15 00:30

Nice theories! You know you have enough detail there to make a really useful bug report. I hope you do (if you haven't already). Especially with some (simple) data that you know shows the problem, ideally with some saved views such that switching from one to the other (or back again) shows the issue, and of course details of your system including GPU and its driver version. If the problem doesn't occur in 32-bit Manifold it's certainly worth saying that too.

Chard10 post(s)
#22-Apr-15 10:21

Another question I've just thought of;

While investigating alternatives, I came across QGIS, which is free, and appears to have reasonable functionality. It's not as comprehensive/streamlined/elegant as Manifold, but is this kind of software disruptive enough to make the makers of Manifold nervous, or think about changing their business model?

Forest
625 post(s)
#15-May-15 04:59

Hi Chard,

I use both QGIS and Manifold. Manifold is still far easier for analysis than QGIS. I actually went to Manifold to do wind farms from ArcGIS 8.3 because Manifold with surface tools is so good. I last used manifold a few days ago for blending in a high res lidar terrain which an idiot had clipped for me to the shape of the job site, with space shuttle radar so that I could present the context of the site in the wider landscape. Despite having used QGIS for a long time, I find that many of the advanced tools are still half-baked and can produce poor results (hill shades are awful). In a few years time, I suspect that QGIS will catch up to Manifold in this area. The guys at QGIS seem to be about making ever prettier maps and heavy duty Postgres work (vector spacial analysis) and don't show much sign of heading into core manifold territory, which is brilliant tools for working with attribute tables, map algebra with rasters, transferring selections, having no barriers between datatypes (paste a drawing as a raster or a raster as a drawing etc. Manifold also has a descent help file, which QGIS does not have for advanced topics. On the other side QGIS has more plug-ins. The best advice is to use Manifold for doing the work and QGIS for presenting it. Manifold can also do oblique views of sites as it is 2.5D, whereas QGIS is 2D (in theory it is also 2.5D, but I have not been able to make that work).

F

jbgramm
236 post(s)
#25-May-15 21:40

I agree with Forest on the above statements for the most part.

I use Manifold, QGIS, Mapinfo, ArcGIS, Global Mapper, and anything else that gets the job done for me. Regularly. I am somewhat software agnostic. A tool is a tool. Some are better than others for certain tasks, and some are completely useless for certain tasks.

QGIS makes printing, or presenting a great map very easy.

Customization is ridiculously easy for points, lines, and areas.

You can create input forms for data capture that will symbolize the feature based upon your input.

You have your choice of 32, or 64 bit software, although everyone has it now, so that is no big concern, if you are simply concerned with bit capability.

It is also easy to train people to use it. The price is right. For the price of six Manifold Universal licenses, I am able to buy six semi-rugged tablets PC's along with Bluetooth GPS/GLONASS antennas, install QGIS on each, and have six field ready navigation/mapping systems in use.

Something that you cannot do in QGIS which you can in Manifold, and Mapinfo quite is easily is, create a table, manually enter coordinates, create a drawing from that table.

That is a major frustration at times with QGIS.

There is an active, friendly community of QGIS users, and it seems to be on a very steady development path.

Significant improvements, and functionality seem to be released with each update, which occurs every three months.

I honestly believe that anyone working in the Geospatial field is doing themselves a great disservice by not investigating QGIS.

I have also felt the same way with regards to Manifold, although my enthusiasm has subsided somewhat.

For heavy lifting, surface analysis, tabular work, creating new drawings, images and so on, Manifold is far superior in power, and function to any of the software packages I mentioned above.

I can still make great maps, and program like mad in Mapinfo/Mapbasic.

I can do the same in QGIS and make add-ins in Python

I can create data that will please most of my clients in ArcGIS, and have some Python routines that work.

I can transform data in Global Mapper better than any of the above, and the Lidar extension is worth every penny.

I can get very difficult tasks done in Manifold. Most of these I do manually. I only have a few scripts for Manifold, and all of them only work in 32 bit Manifold.

The spatial SQL capabilities in Manifold are amazing, and then you have people here that create jaw dropping queries, and are incredibly helpful.

It depends on your budget, and what tasks you will be performing regularly as to the right decision with regards to software.

Manifold is not a wrong choice by any means.

My Highest Regards,

Jon


Just Remember, You are unique, just like everybody else!

geozap
264 post(s)
#27-May-15 17:19

"For the price of six Manifold Universal licenses, I am able to buy six semi-rugged tablets PC's"

I do a lot of field work and I would like to ask, which are the semi-rugged tablets that come in such a low cost (Manifold Universal Edition costs 575$(32bit)/625$(64bit))?

Thanks in advance

jbgramm
236 post(s)
#27-May-15 19:35

I actually have several different solutions.

Every now and then you can find a tablet PC that will have a rugged case on the accessories page, and combine the price has been around $550. HP had an incredible deal on a system like this awhile back.

Mobile Demand takes an 8 inch tablet, and puts a hard plastic shell on the back with rubberized bumpers around the outside, and a durable screen protector, and those are less than $600 a piece.

You can also shop around for tablets online, then find a compatible Otter Box case for them.

All of those options with a little research, and surfing are readily available.

Holux makes a GPS/Glonass GNSS receiver that you can pick up for about $60

The Garmin GLO is a bluetooth GPS/Glonass receiver that depending upon the update rate you select (1, 10, 20 HZ.) can be gotten for less than $100

Be aware that you will need Windows 8.1 for the above units to work properly, 8.0 had some issues, and I am not certain about Windows 7

You can also shop on EBAY for used tablets. A coworker purchased a Motion Computing J3500 tablet, very well configured, refurbished, and in excellent shape for $250 plus shipping.


Just Remember, You are unique, just like everybody else!

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